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[Anna]: You're listening to the Real Intelligence podcast,
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[Anna]: presented by RXA, a leader in Business Intelligence and Data Science consulting services.
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[Anna]: We're here to bring attention to the unique stories, perspectives,
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[Anna]: challenges and success that individuals in the
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[Anna]: data industry face at every career stage. Welcome to the show!
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[Anna]: Thank you for tuning in to the Real Intelligence podcast.
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[Anna]: You're on today with Katia Sausys, SVP of Business Intelligence
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[Anna]: at RXA and Anna Schultz, Marketing Coordinator at RXA.
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[Anna]: Our guest today is Susan Cunningham,
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[Anna]: Executive Director, Managing Partner of Marketing Intelligence
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[Anna]: and Data Science at Wavemaker.
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[Anna]: Susan has over twenty years of agency
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[Anna]: experience in global account management,
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[Anna]: analytics, data and audience strategy,
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[Anna]: primary research, and media measurement.
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[Anna]: She has developed these skills across many industries, including tech, gaming,
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[Anna]: fintech, travel, and CPG,
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[Anna]: at creative and data-focused firms.
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[Anna]: Susan is based in San Francisco and holds
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[Anna]: a Master's Degree in Counseling Psychology.
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[Anna]: Susan has experience with quantitative and qualitative research methodologies,
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[Anna]: consumer segmentation,
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[Anna]: creative testing and complicated measurement
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[Anna]: and effectiveness evaluation
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[Anna]: for actionable marketing optimization.
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[Anna]: She brings these skills to her current role
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[Anna]: where she leads the marketing intelligence and data science team
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[Anna]: for Wavemaker across all West Coast accounts.
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[Anna]: Welcome to the show Susan!
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[Susan]: Thank you.
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[Katia]: Welcome!
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[Anna]: Absolutely.
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[Anna]: We're really grateful that you took the time to talk with us today.
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[Anna]: So, we like to start off the podcast by getting to know the real you.
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[Anna]: So, I have a few questions that we might not find the answers to in your professional bio.
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[Anna]: The first one being, do you have any fun hobbies or talents that people might not know about?
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[Susan]: I mean, I paint quite a bit.
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[Susan]: You can see a couple, one of, actually two of mine right there.
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[Susan]: Yeah. I paint quite a bit. I, um,
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[Susan]: I think that's probably my biggest one
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[Susan]: that I do on the side.
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[Susan]: Yeah. Read a lot of books, but mostly painting. It's my fun hobby that I love.
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[Anna]: That's awesome.
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[Anna]: Do you feel like you have a favorite artist or artists
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[Anna]: that you draw inspiration from? Or do you just kinda...
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[Susan]: Yeah. I love Richard Diebenkorn. He's a,
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[Susan]: he's an artist who spent quite a bit of time in the Bay Area, a lot of time in California.
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[Susan]: He does, kind of, like, big color field paintings, quite a lot.
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[Susan]: And he also has some beautiful abstract expressionist
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[Susan]: kind of work that I really, really love. So I love... I love his style. I love
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[Susan]: his whole genre. Elmer Bischoff as well. Those guys are couple of my favorites.
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[Anna]: Awesome. I'll have to look those up.
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[Anna]: And do you feel like having art, and that creative outlet helps you
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[Anna]: with your role at all? Or do you feel any of those skills translate into your role?
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[Anna]: Or is it just something you do to kinda get away from it all?
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[Susan]: Yeah. I think so. I think that I, I would definitely not say I'm a fully
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[Susan]: left-brained person by any means. I feel like I'm much more, you know,
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[Susan]: sort of, center-of-the-brain is the way I like to think of myself.
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[Susan]: I feel like in the, you know, with so much data and so many numbers
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[Susan]: and so, you know, always being inundated with kind of information and
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[Susan]: and chunks of, chunks of data.
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[Susan]: What I find useful is being able to try to pull all that together,
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[Susan]: find the patterns, and tell the story. And that to me is a much more, kind of, right brain
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[Susan]: sort of, you're looking for those connections. And I think art and creativity
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[Susan]: is a way to
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[Susan]: make those connections and to then tell the story.
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[Susan]: And also sometimes to work not linearly. Because a lot of times, I find myself thinking,
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[Susan]: and hopefully a lot of my team is doing this too. Thinking about
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[Susan]: what is the end goal? Who is the audience?
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[Susan]: Where am I trying to go? So that I then can bump along the way on the journey,
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[Susan]: or, you know, pull disparate pieces together to ultimately get to where I'm going.
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[Susan]: But I think it's a very non-linear process. I think sometimes in numbers and data,
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[Susan]: I think it attracts, the field sort of attracts a lot of people who like a linear process.
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[Susan]: But I don't find that to be the best.
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[Susan]: And certainly in the agency world in which I worked for so long,
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[Susan]: you need to be kind of
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[Susan]: able to live in the unknowns and the
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[Susan]: unclear, lack of clarity, and also just to work sort of more
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[Susan]: in that nonlinear fashion, is what I found to be
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[Susan]: more helpful.
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[Susan]: So yes. I do think it helps a lot.
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[Anna]: That's great. Yeah. Our CEO always says that the secret of data science is
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[Anna]: it's more of an art than a science. So I feel like that very much plays into that.
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[Susan]: Yeah. I think that's true... I think people are very uncomfortable with that idea
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[Susan]: because I think everyone really likes, well I shouldn't say everyone,
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[Susan]: but it feels as though. There's a lot more comfort in,
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[Susan]: you know, the known and the sort of very black and white, you know,
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[Susan]: sort of like...
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[Susan]: When am I try to say, like, the zeros and ones, you know,
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[Susan]: it's either this or that. But in reality, there are so many ways,
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[Susan]: and those of us who've worked with data and numbers before. I mean there's
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[Susan]: so many ways to craft the story, to pull the pieces you want and ignore the ones you don't.
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[Susan]: You know, it's not, it's not always. It is...
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[Susan]: There's a lot of art in it. And there's a lot of heart, there can be a lot of heart in it,
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[Susan]: I think too because it's also about... What is that story you're trying to tell?
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[Susan]: What is it that you're trying to understand?
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[Susan]: Rather than just, you know, here's the number. So...
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[Katia]: Exactly. Put reality to it. When we were wondering how to name our
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[Katia]: podcast,
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[Katia]: we played with the idea of artificial versus real intelligence. That's how it came about.
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[Susan]: That's fantastic. I love that.
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[Susan]: And there's so much AI now. I mean, everything is AI,
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[Susan]: all the models are AI-based. So I mean, it's all just, you know,
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[Katia]: it's the buzzword
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[Susan]: Isn't it interesting? Yeah. It's the latest buzz word. One of the latest.
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[Anna]: Absolutely. I completely agree with all of that.
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[Anna]: And I think it's something that's not talked about as much, which is really,
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[Anna]: you know, interesting to hear that perspective from someone who's
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[Anna]: been in that industry for so long.
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[Susan]: Yeah. Yeah.
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[Anna]: And now before I turn over to Katia to get into kind of the
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[Anna]: more meat-and-potatoes of the interview.
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[Anna]: Can you, in your own words, kind of walk us through your career journey
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[Anna]: and how you got to where you are today?
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[Susan]: Sure. I was actually just telling somebody this story the other day
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[Susan]: because I feel like kids now have this... It feels like...
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[Susan]: It seems like there's a lot of pressure on them to really
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[Susan]: know what they wanna do in a way that I don't think I experienced in my
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[Susan]: years. I mean, there was some pressure. you know, what are you gonna do?
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[Susan]: But it it didn't feel like I had to actually know. It felt like I could kinda figure it out.
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[Susan]: And it seems to me that there's a lot more pressure on kids now. So I feel like
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[Susan]: my... You know, I went to college. I got a
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[Susan]: bachelor's degree in counseling...
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[Susan]: Sorry, communication studies.
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[Susan]: And really because I like watching TV, that is God's honest truth.
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[Susan]: And then I was like, I don't know what I wanna do. Maybe I'll be on the news.
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[Susan]: I'll be a reporter because I like watching TV. Like, that was it. That was my big decision.
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[Susan]: So I ended up as an intern at CNN
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[Susan]: in Washington DC at the time, and this will age, date me, but I... It was during the
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[Susan]: Iran-Contra hearings. So Oli North and
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[Susan]: Fawn... whatever her name was, the admin who shredded the documents.
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[Susan]: Anyway, it was an exciting time to be there. But what I learned is that,
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[Susan]: this a sidebar story, but what I learned is that
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[Susan]: TV production is much like film production,
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[Susan]: which is slow and like, you drive everywhere, you get a two-minute shot
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[Susan]: and it takes forever to, like, get that shot. And so anyway I kind of then
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[Susan]: was thinking to myself. I'm not sure this is right. Ended up
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[Susan]: back in the Bay Area, worked for a local TV station. Again, thinking well I like TV,
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[Susan]: And I ended up literally falling into a job where I was like a research analyst.
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[Susan]: And at the time, it was about creating sales docs for...
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[Susan]: for the sales team to go out and sell our programs, ads within our programs.
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[Susan]: And I liked it. What I found is that, like, I could see the pattern in the numbers,
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[Susan]: and I could tell a story with the numbers, more importantly. And I think
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[Susan]: that was amazing training. And I then stayed in radio and then cable because
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[Susan]: it was all about taking the numbers and crafting the story
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[Susan]: that would help the sales people sell that air time.
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[Susan]: And that, it was an incredible foundation.
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[Susan]: And then, you know, the... I go to grad school, I get my counseling psych degree,
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[Susan]: I also find that people are really tricky when you sit with them one on one
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[Susan]: in counseling because talk about not black and white. It is all gray, all the time.
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[Susan]: And that was very interesting and very, very helpful and
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[Susan]: I learned a lot of stuff in Grad school about listening to people,
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[Susan]: and allowing space for what's next, and things like that.
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[Susan]: And yet, the Internet was starting to take off and I was thinking
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[Susan]: gosh, I feel like I'm missing something and I really kinda of missed
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[Susan]: numbers and research and telling a story with data. And so
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[Susan]: I fell back into the agency world in one of the very earliest .com
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[Susan]: agencies, called iXL.
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[Susan]: And I was there for a little while, kind of bumped around the .com boom.
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[Susan]: Katia and I got to work together at an agency also.
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[Susan]: And then I just... I've been in the agency world for
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[Susan]: so many years now, which is ironic because
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[Susan]: seriously in my very first, very first agency at iXL, I thought
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[Susan]: I am never doing an agency job again because you basically have two jobs
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[Susan]: where you're doing the work, and then you're also
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[Susan]: managing the clients, which is like a separate job.
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[Susan]: So I just thought this is it. This is my last agency,
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[Susan]: and then meanwhile, you know, twenty years later, I'm still in the agency space
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[Susan]: because there's so much I do love about it. So that's the arc, the trajectory.
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[Katia]: Awesome. Thank you. Yes. I do remember fondly
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[Katia]: our time at Modern Media,
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[Katia]: eventually Digitas,
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[Katia]: where we would brainstorm
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[Katia]: solutions to analytical
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[Katia]: problems, and measurement challenges
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[Katia]: with Andrew Hoebrichts,
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[Katia]: our lead at the time who was so passionate about it, remember?
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[Susan]: He was, oh my gosh, yes.
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[Katia]: And I think that one of the most important questions that we women,
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[Katia]: humans in data get asked, is how can I prove that my marketing budget
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[Katia]: was not wasted? That my marketing efforts work?
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[Katia]: What in your experience
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[Katia]: are the most challenging aspects
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[Katia]: of answering that question?
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[Katia]: Is it the data that we need to collect, is it the way we collect it? Is it even
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[Katia]: how we frame our questions?
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[Susan]: I think it is... I think it's the data we collect.
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[Susan]: I think it's also the fragmented nature of where the data is coming from.
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[Susan]: I think, you know, when you and I were in our agency life,
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[Susan]: it was pretty relatively straightforward.
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[Susan]: I feel like there were a lot fewer digital channels. The data was a lot more sort of
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[Susan]: fluid. It was very basic. It seems very basic to me at the time.
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[Susan]: I mean, I remember looking at, like,
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[Katia]: Click-through-rate.
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[Susan]: Yeah! It was Click-through-rate, and, like,
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[Susan]: the view-through-rate. And, like, it was just quite simple, you know?
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[Susan]: And now I think both the measurement solutions have gotten
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[Susan]: more abundant and maybe more complicated.
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[Susan]: And then you have data coming from, you know, in some cases the walled gardens;
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[Susan]: but then you can only get this part of the data. Or you can
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[Susan]: see this part of the view, but not the entire thing. So I think the complication
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[Susan]: comes from trying to piece together this sort of Jigsaw puzzle of
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[Susan]: data and measurement solutions. And then the other thing I have found multiple times lately, is that
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[Susan]: clients sort of have these, you know, in the old days of kinda like brand media, right?
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[Susan]: It was like, we want awareness, and we want consideration, and we'll measure it a certain way.
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[Susan]: Or it's like all about sales and then you're measuring it there.
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[Susan]: Now what I'm finding is happening is that most of my clients
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[Susan]: who, even though they're running brand campaigns
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[Susan]: and they may have their performance media running in-house. They
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[Susan]: kind of want it all. So they want us to be running the brand campaign, tracking awareness, consideration,
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[Susan]: tracking... You know...
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[Susan]: Then all the sudden it becomes a traffic-driving campaign. Well, if it's traffic driving, we might do different tactics
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[Susan]: with the different platforms.
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[Susan]: And also measure it slightly differently. And why do we care then, about awareness?
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[Susan]: So what I find getting more and more complicated is also the sort of shifting
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[Susan]: objectives, or multiple objectives of the client, also. So the story gets complicated and confusing,
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[Speaker_4]: I think is what's going on.
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[Katia]: So you need to pin the clients and have them
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[Speaker_4]: in blood and sweat and tears
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[Katia]: to sign what the business objectives are.
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[Susan]: Exactly.
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[Katia]: Because you'll be account.. you know, be held accountable.
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[Susan]: Yep. I mean, I literally was just looking at a rap report with some team members and it was...
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[Susan]: You know, it's tricky, because you're...
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[Susan]: You have a campaign where the goal really... You know, the stated objective
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[Susan]: is awareness
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[Susan]: and, you know, some shift in a couple other metrics. But then ultimately,
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[Susan]: what they still ask about is how much traffic got driven. So...
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[Susan]: But it's two sort of different things. And I think our investment teams,
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[Susan]: it's hard for them too because they're trying to sort of
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[Susan]: deal with multiple objectives within one channel or one partner, and it's...
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[Susan]: It just... It makes the story convoluted, and it makes it hard for my team to ultimately sometimes tell the story in a clear way.
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[Katia]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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[Katia]: Is, are there, is there any topic that people come to you, most about?
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[Susan]: Yeah. I think the thing I hear more and more and more because
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[Susan]: more clients
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[Susan]: have their performance media in-house, or their acquisition media in-house,
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[Susan]: and they will... And I have this
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[Susan]: for a number of clients, a number of clients will have their brand or awareness media through an agency like ours.
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[Susan]: And more and more, there's a call for - help me understand what this media that you're running out in the agency world is doing to my bottom line.
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[Susan]: Help me, like, get really have, almost like a direct connection, and this kinda of goes back to what we were talking about earlier, that
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[Susan]: sometimes it's not a perfect linkage. It's a little bit loose. Right?
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[Susan]: And it either has to be modeled, or you have to use some other you know, means of measuring or making that connection that's not
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[Susan]: a hundred percent clear.
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[Katia]: Some other signals. Yeah.
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[Susan]: Yes. And everyone wants the very clear, like, if this then that, and it's just, it's much more broken up than that.
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[Susan]: That's the biggest thing.
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[Katia]: And that's where you get your paints out and you try to put some art to it.
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[Susan]: That's right. Then I start painting. I'm sorry. I'm not able to help you at the moment.
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[Susan]: But it does it... What it means then is because it's so... That is a complex question.
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[Susan]: I mean, on one hand, it can be simple if you say, let's just do MMM or one of the more modern versions of
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[Susan]: MMM, like
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[Susan]: Robin, which is a meta solution or we have some agile MMM solutions in-house. You know, if they're willing to do that.
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[Susan]: But because the performance media is handled by the client most often,
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[Susan]: if you're also then suddenly bringing together teams of people and get...
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[Susan]: It almost becomes an organizational challenge then, on top of even just the data challenge.
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[Susan]: Because you're wrangling or working with someone to help get the data from the client,
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[Susan]: this performance media data. Then you're trying to get the, you know, the external data
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[Susan]: from all the various platforms and all of that, and then
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[Susan]: create the models to bridge the gap. And it's just, it's not... I will say I've not found it
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[Susan]: a simple question.
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[Katia]: Absolutely. Becomes a,
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[Katia]: a different project. It's not a data project anymore. It's, yeah.
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[Katia]: It's organizational and lots of other skills are needed.
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[Katia]: Thank you. Yeah. Totally resonate with that.
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[Katia]: So tell us...
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[Katia]: Because I'm sure there are a lot of
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[Katia]: people, women
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[Katia]: who are early in their careers, are probably
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[Katia]: going to listen or get to this podcast eventually.
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[Katia]: Do you have any advice for them?
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[Susan]: I mean, what I always say... I mean, I say this to my team
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[Susan]: because they tend to be a lot of very young people.
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[Susan]: It's sort of interesting working in the agency world. I mean,
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[Susan]: you don't have to be
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[Susan]: very old to be the oldest person in the room sometimes, it seems like.
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[Susan]: Yeah. I think what I always tell them is,
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[Susan]: you know,
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[Susan]: it's great to have a goal and a trajectory.
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[Susan]: And also don't be
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[Susan]: afraid if something comes along that intrigues you and seems interesting, you know,
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[Susan]: a project,
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[Susan]: a career path,
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[Susan]: an interview.
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[Susan]: Why not pursue it? You have, you have nothing to lose. And I always say, like,
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[Susan]: the other thing is, it's okay not to know the answer to questions. In fact, it's very good to ask those questions.
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[Susan]: I mean, we all hear that all the time. We've all heard that all time from, you know, our
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[Susan]: past bosses and, you know, leaders say that all the time.
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[Susan]: But I really do try to encourage the team to feel like they can ask me anything
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[Susan]: or ask each other too, you know. Ask your peers, if you're not comfortable asking your boss.
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[Susan]: Just make sure you're asking the question and don't assume that, you know, everyone knows.
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[Susan]: And the other thing is, like, take every interview that comes your way.
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[Susan]: Take everybody who reaches out to you for an informational.
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[Susan]: Do it. You never know what you're gonna come up with.
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[Susan]: You know, you never know. And I will say that I think the last,
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[Susan]: gosh...
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[Susan]: It's been a long time since I've actually, like, applied for a job. I feel like all of my, most of my recent
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[Susan]: interviews, maybe Katia since the way back days when you and I worked together,
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[Susan]: were kinda like somebody who knew somebody who knew about me. They called me and then I was on the phone with them.
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[Susan]: And even though many times I was not necessarily looking or ready to leave my job,
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[Susan]: whatever the conversation was, it was intriguing enough that it felt like I was...
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[Susan]: I was good. Sure. Let's do it. Let's see what this is. So it's been an amazing and interesting ride,
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[Susan]: and I encourage people to just be open to that. And not feel like they have to do something for a certain
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[Susan]: length of time, necessarily.
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[Katia]: Mhm, great advice. Thank you.
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[Katia]: I mean, I've been lucky to have
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[Katia]: great bosses so far. I certainly shared one with you.
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[Katia]: Did you have any
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[Katia]: mentors
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[Katia]: in your career, that you can call mentors?
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[Susan]: You know, It... That's a really good question.
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[Susan]: Sadly,
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[Susan]: well
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[Susan]: I've had some bosses who have been
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[Susan]: really good mentors. I worked with a woman named Michelle,
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[Susan]: and she was my boss when I was at Cara. I was at an agency called Cara for many years
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[Susan]: and she was an amazing boss, an amazing mentor.
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[Susan]: Really a wonderful advocate for
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[Susan]: me, for our department.
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[Susan]: But I do... I remember distinctly, I had a moment,
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[Susan]: early, early in my career, actually my very first job, and there was a woman and she had this amazing name.
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[Susan]: And she said to me, sort of in passing, but it so stuck with me,
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[Susan]: but she was like, you'll go far in your career. Just, you know, remember who you are and what you know.
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[Susan]: And I was... And she literally said it to me in passing, but it had such a huge impact.
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[Susan]: So, I mean, I guess another piece of advice, and probably I should take this to heart as well.
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[Susan]: That we all can have such impact on each other and on young people who are coming up in their careers.
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[Susan]: And it doesn't have to take a lot of energy or effort or even forethought. I mean, I think she probably said that just
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[Susan]: willy nilly, and it was like... I mean, here I am however many years later and I still remember it and I'm still so touched by it. So...
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[Katia]: Awesome. Thank you.
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[Katia]: And Susan, what is
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[Katia]: a quality that people admire most
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[Katia]: about you?
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[Katia]: I can start you off - you're a great communicator and a great listener.
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[Katia]: Thank you, Katia.
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[Susan]: I think I've gotten a lot of feedback that just people... It's a very,
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[Susan]: it's like a soft skill, soft quality, but people, they enjoy being around me.
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[Susan]: They feel sort of upbeat, and there's sort of a lightness to things. And which I think is important.
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[Susan]: Gosh, sometimes,
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[Susan]: I think we take ourselves so seriously. And in the agency world, and I just think, you guys.
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[Susan]: I mean, it is important. And on behalf of our clients, of course, we wanna be as responsible and as,
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[Susan]: you know, buttoned up as possible. And also,
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[Susan]: let's keep in mind that we are all in advertising and media, and it's all okay. You know? So I think,
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[Susan]: I think sometimes the lightheartedness that I might bring to a lot of situations.
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[Susan]: I mean, I have been told that I needed to be more serious, especially in new business pitches.
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[Susan]: But I think that that's probably, that's probably one.
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[Susan]: I mean, you know, our friend Peter Lenn, Katia. I remember him at one time saying to me, Susan
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[Susan]: everybody likes you. And I was kinda like, they do? You know, but I think I have some likability factor that I
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[Susan]: I don't...
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[Katia]: You do. Yeah. You do, admit it.
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[Katia]: Alright. Last question.
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[Katia]: Is there one thing you would love to be an expert at?
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[Susan]: Oh, god, that's a great question.
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[Susan]: Around what I'm doing work-wise?
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[Katia]: You can take it anyway you want.
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[Susan]: I would say,
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[Susan]: oh, gosh.
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[Susan]: Well,
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[Susan]: An expert I know.
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[Katia]: You cannot be an expert in painting, right?
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[Susan]: No.
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[Susan]: I mean, I would say, like,
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[Susan]: I think if I could crack... If I could have a simple, concise
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[Susan]: answer to the, how do we understand the impact of this on this?
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[Susan]: I would love that. To have a more pithy, boxed up answer
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[Susan]: that isn't about how complicated it is. I would love that. Secretly, I would love to be like, a dance choreographer.
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[Susan]: That would be like... I would love that. Like, I would love that to have that, like, special skill to be able to craft a dance
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[Susan]: that was
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[Susan]: movement and action, but it communicated a feeling. I think that's just beautiful.
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[Katia]: It is, it is. You are a storyteller. Thank you Susan.
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[Susan]: Yes!
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[Anna]: Yeah, thank you, Susan so much for, you know, taking the time to
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[Anna]: share your career journey, your advice,
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[Anna]: some things that people might admire about you.
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[Anna]: I think you're really likable, this is my first time meeting you, but I can already say I definitely agree with that.
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[Anna]: Before we log off today, is there anything else that you would wanna say
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[Anna]: or any advice you wanna leave our listeners with before we close down the recording?
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[Susan]: I would say that in the world of data and analytics
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[Susan]: there's a lot of intimidation that happens or it can feel very intimidating
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[Susan]: because it's complicated and because it's nonlinear,
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[Susan]: even though you would think it was. And because it's fragmented,
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[Susan]: and there's not really a lot of easy direct answers,
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[Susan]: And that's okay. Just... I think I would say, like, be okay to have that intimidated feeling,
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[Susan]: but just know that that's natural and normal and not to let it
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[Susan]: stop you if you enjoy the career. Because you'll just keep learning,
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[Susan]: and it should be about learning for you, in your career the whole time.
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[Anna]: The Real Intelligence podcast is presented by RXA, a leading data science consulting company.
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[Anna]: RXA provides project based consulting, staff augmentation, and direct hire staffing services for data science,
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[Anna]: data engineering, and business intelligence,
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[Anna]: to help our clients unlock the value in their data faster.
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[Anna]: Learn more by visiting our website at www.rxa.io
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[Anna]: or contact our team at
[email protected] today.
